• James
    2
    Theism Vs Atheism
    I have seen many low TSQ debates on this topic. It can be an emotive issue and there are many miscomprehensions on both sides. Let us see if we can sort some of the problems out with high TSQ and really make some progress which will then filter out to other groups across the world.

    We should identify as truth seekers first and atheist or theist as secondary. This helps keep us free from bias.
  • Emanuel Mann
    1
    There is one thought experiment I have gone through, time and time again, that has produced the same results:

    when an individual goes to ponder the beginning of all that is, There is one very important question to ask. when using our awareness and mental processes to contemplate the Origin point of everything in existence..The beginning... The Question of " can Something come from nothing?" leads to to an interesting answer.

    Now there are many who have, and will debate that the answer is YES.. something can come from nothing. and this is where i believe it is important to establish what we are defining as "something" and " nothing".
    for this thought experiment i define SOMETHING as a THING that is unspecified or unknown.
    and NOTHING as - No thing at all.
    if i were to ask the question using other words, i would say, can existence rise out of non-existence?, can substance come forth from non-substance?
    in my honest opinion the answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. something CANNOT come from no thing at all.

    So since something cannot come from nothing, we have no choice intellectually to Fill the place of the origin of all things with the word SOMETHING.. SOMETHING can ONLY come from SOMETHING ELSE.

    TO clarify i am saying that this thought experiment can only produce one result, and that is the by-product that something had to be there at the beginning of all things. That everything that exists could not have sprung out of non-existence.

    So after you establish there is something that was there at the beginning. You ask yourself 1 more question... was intelligence present or not?.

    despite the fact there are so many more questions to ask and think about concerning the fact, if there has always been something(eternity)..what does that mean. i mean scientifically speaking one of the laws of thermodynamics states energy cant be created or destroyed, so they also agree SOMETHING has always existed, so why would this not be at the beginning of time as we know it.. but i digress. I feel this question is dominantly where theists and atheists divide.. the theist says YES there was intelligence in the beginning... the Atheist concludes there was not.

    I choose to believe that intelligence is indeed primordial, it is ancient and was present with that SOMETHING that was at the beginning.

    I am a Theist.

    any thoughts?
  • James
    2
    Hi Emanuel, my question is: does there have to be a beginning? For example the transcendental mathematical and other truths cannot have had a beginning. They are timeless not subject to creation or destruction.

    I also believe that there are 2 co-eternal aspects of reality: primordial matter and primordial consciousness. Neither created the other and there is nothing else to have created them either so they are also timeless and without beginning.

    Within this overall framework there are several possibilities for Theism but I am still exploring the framework.
  • Emanuel Mann
    1
    existence itself has no beginning. and that is what I arrive at through the thought experiment. Realizing that something had to always be( No beginning), which is considered a attribute of the Creator). When multi-dimensionality is factored in, things get a bit complex. for an example, on some level of your being you had a beginning when you were being formed in your mothers womb, and then born. at this point you were not aware of transcendent math and other truths that were already in existence before you began, on the specific level i am speaking about. On another level there was a beginning to you coming into awareness of the transcendent truths. my thought experiment is used to take the mind of ones soul ,on a trip to as far as it can conceive, predisposed to believe in beginnings, Yet when arriving at this place in contemplation, and asking if something can come forth from nothing at all, and realizing that Something can only come from something else... Something remains eternally in the Place of where Nothing cannot be. this is Eternity. If this fact can be realized existentially, then the Soul starts to feel the Miracle that is Life. even if for a brief moment.

    So to answer your question, No, when it comes to absolute truth, there is no beginning. but when it comes to the Prime Creator(as I know Him to be) vs created beings. the created beings have a beginning, but were made out of the substance that has No beginning( created in the image and likeness of God). But you see if the Creator being the absolute ever created anything greater then him, he would cease to be the absolute, so all things that came forth out from the Creator are his" Children". That is just based off the Law that 1 comes before any other number, and cannot be displaced. the First Is always the First. so the creator can take ..Us.. and break us back into undifferentiated units of consciousness. so the "energy" doesn't get destroyed, but we do. but

    This is what the bible is referring to when it states to " fear he who can destroy both body and Soul.. we know the body can be broken down and decomposed. I believe the soul can as well. otherwise evil intelligence and being is immortal.

    not to go to far into a tangent, but the number 0, is not even a real number. its a place holder representing all that is Not in relation to 1.. nothing comes before 1, Making ..1 the first real number of substance.. yet If we remain on the number line( in math purely) then it cant make sense that 1 actually contains all the other numbers. if we step in theology, the "source" Contained in himself everything that was needed to fashion the Multiverse.. this is why I stress Multidimensionality.

    You seemed to mention something similar about descend from the truth, that people fashion their reality with.

    Another example is our ability to have five sense experience in "dreams" and yet our physical bodies is not actually experiencing the dream in physical reality. its another dimension. if you look at it like states of matter water has some different laws and properties depending on if it is a Solid, liquid, or gas. our physical body is more solid, or emotions are more liquid, and our thoughts are gas, each operate in their own domain, none are invalid.

    but i digress, I also believe their are those 2- co eternal aspects of reality.. But I do believe there are more then Only those two. if we want to perceive consciousness and matter as near unintelligent, or blind, and just following math( leaning more towards atheism, then we can stop at 2 co-eternal aspects, ( not claiming this is your belief) But theism would attribute non-mathematical attributes such as love, desire, soul, personality, omnipotence,presence and omniscience, to that which has no beginning.. or end for that matter " I am the Alpha and the Omega"

    I will make one final point, "energy cannot be created or destroyed, limits God"s creative potential, from a theist point of view.

    its stripping infinity from his hands.

    Think of it like this, even within math we can perceive infinity, when we count from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 etc...to 1 million to 1 billion to 1 trillion.. etc... when we run out of words.. we can still feel the next Pulse we can feel that there exists a number even beyond that. so we already resonate with infinity.. its Atheism that says there isn't infinite energy or a infinity source that can generate new energy in existence, and therefore they came up with the second law of thermodynamics...Entropy

    Theism (Negentropy Life~Longevity~immortality
    Atheism Entropy Death and decay~.into .. the nothing...

    i mean to be honestly energy is the defined as the ability to do work. Scientifically speaking, they actually still dont quite understand energy or mass etc.

    spiritually speaking we have words like Spirit, life force. in the east we have words like Chi, prana. Ki,.

    I mean, lets say energy cant be created or destroyed.. what about emotions, whats about thoughts, consciousness?
  • Sarthak Lodha
    2
    Religions like Jainism And Buddhism who atheist but spiritual means they are Agnostic this is a new term for many but they are the religion which preaches that everyone can become God like Mahavira And Buddha
  • Samana Johann
    1
    The Sublime Buddha encouraged to the safe bet, meaning to stick with holding right view which includes the honor of Brahmas and Devas, parents, deeds, cause and effect of deeds as well as there are those out there, who actually have realized the truth for themselves. From that point there is actually less hope for one who generally denies of what he could not recognize yet.
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Calling All Sincere Truth Seekers

Dear friend, this is the place to learn about TSQ (Truth Seeking Quotient) and how to boost it. High TSQ means to be freer from personal blind spots, biases and false beliefs, even the subtle ones that most people have but are not aware of. It has deeper implications also..